我真的很開心能夠邀請到巴勒斯坦裔的加拿大青少年小說作者Jackie Khalilieh一起筆談。
Jackie是《Something More》的作者，那是一本講述十五歲的泛自閉光譜青少女Jessie自我成長、找到愛與自我接納的青少年愛情小說。我最初聽聞這本書即將出版，便立刻預購了它，而當我終於收到書後，也很快地讀完了。（近期我也重讀了故事，並再度意識到我多麼能夠和Jessie的旅程共鳴。）
我也和Jessie一樣很喜歡九零年代的文化（我在1996年出生），而我青少女時期也時常被同儕看作那個「戀愛腦」的女生，因為當年我尚未確診泛自閉光譜，並且時常因為我的不同之處而受到排擠與孤立。那時的我多麼希望能夠被人喜歡，我很容易就欣賞起那些稍微對我釋出好意、願意和我說話的人，甚至變得執著於和那些友善的同學交集。
Jessie的許多困境和她的個性，都讓我看到許多與自己的相似處，劇情也有很多地方讓我感到熱愛。
Jackie最近也出版了一本新的小說作品《You Started It》，現在可以在英語系國家的實體書店以及網路書店找到噢。
我之所以想要邀訪Jackie，除了因為我很喜歡她的第一本小說以外，也是因為她時常公開倡導泛自閉光譜作者的聲音在出版界的重要性，也時常分享泛自閉光譜創作者的寫作方式如何與一般人不同。我曾經在我的小說《冬雨裡的向日葵》的導讀序言中，引用並翻譯了一些Jackie以前聊到相關話題的社群貼文（有詢問Jackie的授權）。
今天，我將透過筆談的形式，和Jackie更深入地探討泛自閉光譜作者的寫作模式，以及做為一個神經非典型（neurodivergent）作者如何在複雜的主流／傳統出版界生存、她如何面對Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria（RSD）在寫作上帶給她的影響……以及其他更多話題。這些是在台灣的主流／傳統出版界很少被討論到的事情，這也是為什麼這個筆談對我而言格外重要。
真的非常謝謝Jackie答應我的邀訪，我真的很感激也很開心。
Miya：
身為一個泛自閉光譜寫作者，我們時常在我們的作品裡給出全部的靈魂碎片——我們使用自身的生命經歷、我們將我們的主角們塑造成近似於我們的靈魂鏡像。我曾經在你的社群貼文裡讀到，這樣的寫作選擇就像是在有意識地回返我們的童年創傷，並且公然地將它攤開在大眾眼前——這樣的寫作很私密，但也正是那些私密的部分，帶給故事和人物們那樣深刻立體的真實性。
儘管如此，這樣的「真實性」是以我們的脆弱換得的，因為我們的努力和勇敢，時常將我們暴露在書評或回饋的傷害風險中，無論是來自於與我們的人生體驗差異性較大的當事者讀者，或是無法與我們的體驗共鳴或理解泛自閉光譜思維模式的非當事者……我明白，當我們將自身推向外界以訴求被聽見／看見，難免會遇到與我們意見相左或不喜歡我們的人；然而，這些理性的認知並不能抹去做為一個擁有RSD（且可能很嚴重）的神經非典型作者所感受到的傷痛。
我很想請問Jackie是如何面對RSD，尤其當你的故事和人物與你如此貼近？
Jackie：
嗨，Miya。謝謝你邀請我做這個訪談，也謝謝你說了那麼多《Something More》的好話。
很遺憾地，拒絕和批評是選擇將作品向外推展的創作者必然遭遇的情況。有時，我覺得我好像越來越習慣那些拒絕與批評，而大多數的時候，相較以往我可以比較淡然地面對那些狀況（或許見多就習慣了？）；然而偶爾，我可能會看到一個非常嚴苛的書評，或是受到編輯的拒絕，而我會感到整個人都垮了，開始懷疑自己、懷疑一切。
我相信絕大多數人都不喜歡拒絕或批評，而我無法代言他人對於這一切的感度；我只能以我自身經驗出發，而對我而言，拒絕與批評真的可能帶給我非常大的困難。
即使我可能永有十個讀者的讚美，我還是只會看到那一個負評，並且聚焦在它上頭。我很希望我不要這樣。我希望我能意識到對於我的作品的拒絕，並不代表對於「我」或是我的創作技巧的批判。
最近，正好有人說過，你的書被拒絕了，只不過代表有一個人不喜歡你的書。這有什麼呢？對吧？我也有很多我不喜歡的事物啊。打個比方，George Lucas會在意我完全對《星際大戰》系列沒有興趣嗎？NFL會在乎我覺得足球很無趣嗎？那些奇幻小說作家可能因為我永遠不會想讀奇幻作品而難過嗎（因為我是個對於喜好的作品類型很專注的泛自閉光譜讀者）？
我想，他們不會介懷的。
而我需要停止在意那些我很可能永遠不會見到，也不曉得他們名字的讀者，如何看待我的書。我覺得我做得越來越好了，我真的有所進步。而我想最根本的原因是因為我真的接觸了很多拒絕與批評。
拒絕與批評在一個作者的各種階段都會出現，比如投稿給出版經紀人的時候、出版經紀人把你的書投遞給出版社編輯的時候、書推出後面對讀者的時候、專業書評家讀了你的書的時候、當你被推薦書單或作者活動忽略的時候。
做為一個作者，你不可能逃過拒絕或批評。我們必須明白，每一個作者，無論他在哪一個狀態，是有名還是剛起步，都可能遭受拒絕與批評。或許，知道其他作者也經歷這樣的情況，我們也會感到稍微不孤單。
我時常會感覺到，當我被拒絕後，我整個人的存在都被批判了。這是一個泛自閉光譜者在人生進程中很常會感受並遭遇的狀況；但其實，只是有那麼幾個人不喜歡我的書，而他們選擇去讀別的東西。而我也應該向前進。
閱讀偏好是很主觀的。我應該比任何人都要了解這回事，因為我雖然喜歡某些熱門的東西，我也常常喜歡那些一般人可能根本沒聽過甚至覺得很糟的小眾冷門事物。並不是因為別人不喜歡，就會剝奪我對那些事物的喜愛。
Miya：
做為一個巴勒斯坦裔的加拿大作者，你在一個優先給予白人以及健常者出版機會的業界裡，你曾提及書寫泛自閉光譜主角，再加上探討非白人群體的文化差異等議題的難度。你在那時的社群貼文提到，「作者越是選擇放入被視為『小眾』或『冷門』的元素，作品收穫的回饋也就越顯苛刻。」
在這個格外在乎作品娛樂性、大眾性、易讀性，而對於具有倡議與探討生命議題性質的小說較不偏好的時代，是什麼讓你仍然希望透過主流／傳統方式出版你的著作，即使你知道這個過程會充滿困難？
Jackie：
嗯，我想這兩者（娛樂性和倡議性）並不見得互斥。
一個作品可以同時兼具娛樂性與教育意義。但我認為普通大眾讀者可能沒有意識到這兩者是能共存的。
大眾讀者拿起我的書、翻到背面閱讀簡介，並且看到「巴勒斯坦主角」一詞，而或許，下意識地他們就有點點打消了閱讀念頭，畢竟他們如何想像自己能與一個巴勒斯坦人共鳴呢？接著，他們再往下讀，看見「泛自閉光譜主角」，便開始想，「噢好吧，這看來不會是我想看的類型」，並放下了書。
然而，那些最終願意閱讀我的作品的人，時常告訴我他們覺得故事／人物多麼引發他們的共鳴。這當然是很棒的事！或者有時讀者其實無法與那些劇情共鳴，但他們能夠同理我的主角遭遇的困境。
很遺憾地，絕大多數的讀者很難認知到，一個小眾族群作者（包含但不限：原住民、LGBTQ+、身心障礙、有色人種……等）的作品，可以同時兼具娛樂性併發人省思，因為這些讀者直覺地想要閱讀他們能立刻代入的主人翁的故事，並且忽略了——他們確實也可能與那些和他們長得不太相同（膚色），或和他們有不同人生體驗（或腦迴路）的人們的故事。
我們要怎麼改善這樣的狀況呢？坦白說我不知道。
或許，出版界必須推行更多樣化的作品？但同時，他們也要放入足夠的心神和資源去推廣、行銷那些小眾作品。給予這些作品能夠被看見的空間、和更多人談論這個作品。口耳相傳也是很有幫助的。如果你讀到非常喜歡的小眾作者作品，可以多多和大家分享。每個讀者的熱情推廣，都能夠帶來很大的改變。
Miya：
在你的其中一則社群貼文中，你提到正式出版後突如其來的負面情緒和焦慮。
我曾經感受到這樣的心情，並且覺得很孤單、不曉得是不是只有我一個人遭遇到。
我想，出版的旅程真的是跌跌撞撞，特別是在主流／傳統出版社出書時。
我固然對於能夠在主流／傳統出版社出書滿是感激，對於算是台灣大出版社之一的遠流出版社願意出版我的拙作我至今仍非常感謝（我出的是紀實性、自傳類的，不是小說，我覺得小說要被出版又更加困難）；然而，當年我完成了那本書的新書發表會和各式宣傳時，我突然感到很迷惘和焦慮，而我不知道我如何能繼續做一個「稱職」的文字創作者（我仍努力主動、積極地自行尋求訪談、推書、演講等機會，但這對內向和有RSD的我而言一直是很難的事情）。
如果你願意的話，能否請你分享你正式出版後的那些迷惘感受呢？
Jackie：
我覺得正式出版後的那些焦慮和低落感受是無法避免的。
對我而言，找到在出版界和我有同樣情況並能互相理解彼此困境、可以一起聊聊的夥伴是很有幫助的！作者之間的互助網是很重要的。
同時，我也分享了一點點感受在社群網站上。但我不能說得太多，因為我不想要無意間說出什麼傷害到他人的話（這尤其是泛自閉光譜者常見的情況——儘管沒有惡意，卻可能還是無意間造成傷害）。
當時我分享那些，便是想要讓其他作者知道，他們並不孤單。
正式出版後的自我懷疑與灰心感受，是常見的。
Miya：
你時常在社群上討論到，一般神經典型者（neurotypical）如出版商、編輯、讀者等，不應該在閱讀泛自閉光譜等神經非典型（neurodivergent）創作時（尤其是那些以泛自閉光譜者為主角的作品），抱持與普通作者的作品同樣的期望與標準；同時，你也提倡提升泛自閉光譜作者聲音／敘事的能見度。
你的文字總是溫暖了我、讓我知道我在寫作的過程並不孤單。
我認為，英語系國家（此泛指英美加紐澳）的主流／傳統出版界對於聆聽並給予泛自閉光譜等小眾創作者機會這件事，是相對進步和開明的（但我明白，即使已經有所進步，還是有很多作品無法被看見和重視）；然而，在台灣，身心障礙當事創作者的權益與聲音，很少被談及或受到傾聽。台灣目前對於原住民文學以及同志文學的當事創作有一定程度的重視，但在身心障礙創作的方面卻沒有太多當事者作品（台灣還是有出版一些當事者著作，但多以非虛構文學、工具書等為主，且大多比較聚焦在男性、典型的呈現，小說幾乎未曾見到，或多為非當事者書寫）……
出版界、編輯與讀者有他們對於「何謂『好』的寫作」的一套既定看法，而那個「好」通常可能是建構於神經典型／一般人的視點（比如「Show Don’t Tell」）。當一個作者的寫作方式偏移大眾認定的「好」，那麼那當然就是「不好的」、「技巧缺失」的寫作，並且不會被認可或出版。
我想，大眾也更可能去相信那些既有的刻板、偏見的障礙呈現，尤其那些被主流作品過度使用的（天才自閉症者、多為男性的主角、無感情或無同理心……），並且把那些呈現視為「障礙的真實樣貌」。人們甚至可能以這些「常見呈現」作為標準，去審視、批判那些非典型、較為內化的，或是女性／非二元性別者的障礙呈現，認為那些呈現與印象不符，因此等同於「不正確」的。那些來自當事創作者的呈現，反倒被指責為「太過自省」、「太過重複」、「太過敏感」、「太過煩人」……而人們可能要求泛自閉光譜當事作者去「改變」他們的寫作或「改寫」他們的人物（寫得更符合刻板印象中的障礙樣貌）……
對於許多泛自閉光譜作者而言（包括我自身以及其他曾分享過自己寫作歷程的當事作者們），這就彷彿我們的泛自閉光譜特質／身分再度被審視並受到拒絕／批判。
想請問Jackie，你會希望讀者大眾與出版業界能做些什麼，或如何更好地去穩固當事創作者筆下的真實性，並減低健全主義與刻板誤解的產生？
Jackie：
我不是很確定，協助倡導眾人更願意接納我們的作品，究竟是不是泛自閉光譜作者的責任。這也是為什麼我不去寫那種「帶有特定倡議目的／教育意義」的故事。
我不想要教育讀者該如何剖析一個文學作品。我不是他們的老師或母親。
坦白說，我也只是在寫我個人的體驗，就只是我這一個個體的生命經歷。所以這並不會讓我成為巴勒斯坦人或泛自閉光譜族群的代言者。
我的個體體驗和他人的（或大眾印象中的）不完全吻合，也不代表人們可以就此否定我的視角和感受。並不是因為我對巴勒斯坦或泛自閉光譜的體驗不符合多數，我就變成一個「錯誤的」或「不好的」巴勒斯坦人（或泛自閉光譜者）。我們不應該被如此要求契合他人的想像。
事實上，如果部分讀者本就不願閱讀或去思考刻板外的可能性，那我就算再怎麼說明或倡議，並不會改變任何事。
然而，我確實相信，當書架上能有更多多元化、小眾的書籍，當這些作品能進入大眾視野並成為選擇的一部分，或許讀者們就會比較有意願給這些故事一個機會、並減少聚焦於作者或主角和他們的差異性，而是更去看到故事的本體劇情是否能吸引他們。
Miya：
這是最後一個問題了！
想請問Jackie有沒有什麼想對還在努力讓他們的聲音被聽到的泛自閉光譜作者們說的（尤其是在艱難的主流／傳統出版界）？
真的再次感謝Jackie抽空回答這些問題，我真的很感謝有你的參與！
Jackie：
如果你有想要寫的故事，那就把它好好寫出來吧。
不要去擔心你的呈現是否「正確」。只要你在故事裡投注的是你個人想要放入的真實體驗、那些生命經驗來自於你，就不會是「錯誤的」。
也謝謝Miya的邀請。
祝福你的寫作之路能順利。
我很高興你這麼努力地為泛自閉光譜作者們發聲！
ORIGINAL ENGLISH VERSION
I’m very glad to have invited Palestinian-Canadian YA writer Jackie Khalilieh to do this written interview with me.
Jackie is the author of Something More, a YA romance/coming-of-age story featuring autistic 15-year-old Jessie and her journey to growth, love, and self acceptance. Ever since I heard about this book, I immediately preordered it and once I got it, I read it quite quickly. (Recently I’ve also done a new re-read, and realised again, how I resonate with Jessie’s journey).
I’m fascinated by the 90s (being born in 1996), I’m often seen as the “boy crazy” girl in my teen years, as I was an undiagnosed autistic person at the moment, and was often rejected and ostracised by peers, I wanted to be loved so bad I would fall in love (or become obsessed) with the first person who’s kind to me or was willing to talk to me.
Many of Jessie’s personalities and struggles feel so relatable and there are so many passages in Something More that I absolutely adored.
Jackie has recently published her second book You Started It, now available in physical bookshops and online.
What made me want to invite Jackie, aside from her wonderful debut YA, is that she often evokes the importance of autistic/neurodivergent voices in publishing, and shares her thoughts about how ND writing differs from neurotypical writing. I’ve quote-translated some of her wonderful insights from her older social media posts (with Jackie’s approval) and included them in my self-published coming-of-age’s introduction.
Today, I’m going to talk with Jackie (via writing of course) more in depth about her thoughts around authentic autistic writing, being a neurodivergent author in the traditional publishing world, how she deals with Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) as a writer, and more… These are topics rarely talked about in the publishing/writing world in Taiwan, and that’s why I find it important to do this interview.
Thank you so very much for accepting my invitation, Jackie, I’m truly happy and grateful.
Miya:
As autistic writers, we tend to give all of ourselves into our works - we use our own experiences, we create the main characters as some sort of soul twins of ourselves. I once read in one of your social media posts that this process is like revisiting childhood trauma but in a more public way - it’s very intimate, yet it’s our own experiences that give the stories and the characters their authenticity.
However, it’s the vulnerability in the authenticity we put so much effort into that often leaves us hurt by critiques, by readers whose experiences vary so much from our own, and those who are neurotypical and simply can’t think the way we think… I understand that when we’re putting ourselves into the world to be seen, there surely will be critiques and people who disagree, but still, that hurts a lot especially when you’re a neurodivergent author with severe RSD.
I wonder how you managed to break through the feeling of RSD, when your story/character reflects so much of “you”?
Jackie:
Hi, Miya. Thanks so much for inviting me into this conversation and for the nice things you have said about Something More. Unfortunately, rejection is a big part of being a writer who chooses to put their work out in the world. Sometimes I think that I’ve gotten used to the rejection, and most days, things fall off my shoulders much easier than they used to (exposure therapy maybe?), but once in a while, I’ll see a really harsh critique of my work or receive a rejection from an editor, and I’ll feel crushed, suddenly doubting myself, my ability, my skills, everything. I believe all people are sensitive to rejection, and I can’t speak for how all encompassing other people feel the sting of rejection, all I can speak to is my own experience, and it can be really difficult. You know, I can see ten positive things about my books and then I see one negative, and that’s the one my brain chooses to focus on. I wish it didn’t. I wish I could understand more fully that a rejection of my book isn’t a rejection of myself or my skills. Recently, someone said a rejection of a book just means that one person didn’t like your book. So what? Right? There’s so many things I don’t like. Like, does George Lucas care that I have zero interest in ever watching a Star Wars movie? Does the NFL give two f’s that I find football boring? Do fantasy authors get hurt feelings because I’ll likely never pick up a fantasy novel? (because I’m autistic with a spiky profile and I have no interest in that genre) No. And I need to learn to care less about what people who I’ll never meet or know the names of think about my books. And I’m getting better at this, truly, I am. And I really think the reason is because I have been exposed to a lot at this point. Rejection on the querying level. Submission level. Reader level. Professional reviewers. Being left out of lists, panels, events. There’s no way to avoid rejection as an author. You have to accept that all authors, at every stage and level, experience it. In a way that makes it easier. It can be easy for me to slip into thinking that rejection means that I’ve been rejected as a human, a feeling most autistic people have experienced multiple times, and in crushing ways, but logically, it just means someone didn’t like my book and they’ve moved on to the next. And so, I must also move on from that. Taste is subjective. I should know this more than anyone because while I do love popular things, I’ve also tended to love things that most people have never even heard of or think are terrible. It doesn’t take away the love I have for something just because someone else doesn’t like it.
Miya:
As a Palestinian-Canadian author in an industry that often prioritises white, abled voices, you’ve evoked the difficulties of writing a neurodivergent story, and on top of that, adding other intersections such as cultural differences and point-of-view from people of colour, and the more “differences” and “niches” you put into your story, the harsher the world would be towards the work.
In a world where entertaining stories hold more space than more meaningful works with self-advocacy tendencies, what makes you still want to write and publish your stories, knowing that the journey would be hard?
Jackie:
See I don’t think it has to be one or the other. Work can be both entertaining and meaningful. I just don’t know if the general public, who gets pulled into reading certain types of stories, quite grasps that. They pick up my book, read the back cover and see “Palestinian” and maybe, unconsciously, they retract slightly, because how could they ever relate? And then they keep reading and see “autistic” and think, not for me, and put it down. And those that do end up reading my books, often note how relatable the characters are. Which is great! And maybe sometimes they can’t quite relate, but they’re able to sympathize with the struggles my characters go through. Unfortunately, most readers will never come to realize how both entertaining and meaningful books by marginalized authors are because they innately want to read stories about people they can see themselves in, not realizing that they can also see themselves in people who may look different or have different lived experiences. How do we combat this? I don’t know. Publish more diverse stories. But also, market those stories. Give them prominent shelf space. Share the book with others. Word of mouth can do a lot too. If you’ve read a book by a person of colour or a marginalized person that you think is under hyped, do the hyping! Every little bit helps!
Miya:
In one of your social media posts, I saw you talk about the negative emotions and anxiety post-publishing.
I’ve once felt that too and I also always wondered if it’s only me who felt that way.
I think there are many obstacles that we could face when publishing, and especially in traditional publishing.
I was of course very grateful to have such opportunities to have my manuscript accepted and published in one of the biggest publishing houses in Taiwan (it’s a memoir though, not fiction, I think fiction books are more difficult to get published). Yet when I finished THE book launch event I suddenly felt lost and upset and I didn’t know how to continue as a writer.
If you are willing to, would you please share your own experiences regarding the post-publishing feelings?
Jackie:
I find the post publishing lull is inevitable. For me, what works is finding people within the industry, who understand my feelings, to speak to, to vent with, to commiserate with! Community as a writer is really important. And I also share a bit online. Not too much, because you don’t want to accidentally say too much or hurt someone’s feelings (which is a real risk as an autistic person with good intentions), but more so to let other writers know they’re not alone. That this is a common occurrence after publication.
Miya:
You often talk about how neurotypical audiences (publishers, editors, readers… etc.) should not hold the same expectations for books written by autistic authors (with autistic main characters), and you often advocate for the visibility and importance of neurodivergence own voice works.
Your words always encourage me and let me know that I’m not alone.
I think the publishing industry in mainstream English-speaking countries (US, Canada, UK, Australia… etc.) are more advanced in listening to and accepting ND voices (even though I know it’s not good enough yet and many good writers and stories are still overlooked because they are “different”); however in Taiwan, the importance of own voice works by disabled authors has rarely been discussed and cared for. Taiwan is doing better with LGBTQ+ and indigenous literature and cares about own voice in these domaines, but almost nothing in the disability field (there are some own voice books, but mostly non-fiction and memoirs, and very male-centred and sometimes even quite stereotypical)...
Publishers, editors and readers in Taiwan have their view of “what's ‘good’ writing”, and the definition of “good” is too often neurotypical standards (“Show Don’t Tell”, for instance). When it’s different from their belief of “good”, then, it’s “bad writing” and would not be accepted/published.
I think people also tend to believe more in the stereotypical or even biased representations that are overly used in mainstream works (e.g. savants, male-centred… etc.) and think that those are the “real” situations, they might judge a non-typical, more internalised/masked experiences of AFAB or non-binary individuals and also critique our voices as “too introspective”, “too repetitive”, “too sensitive”, “too annoying”... etc. and they want autistic writers to “change” their writing, their characters…
For many autistic writers (myself and many others who have shared their writing journey) it’s as if our autistic selves are being questioned and rejected, again.
What do you wish the general public and the publishing industry could do better (or more) to ensure authentic neurodivergent voices and avoid ableism?
Jackie:
I don’t really know if it’s our responsibility to teach others how to be receptive to our work. It’s why I don’t write novels with “lessons.” I don’t want to be responsible for teaching readers how to read critically. I’m not their teacher or their mother. Honestly, I’m writing from my experience and perspective. JUST ONE. Which doesn’t make me the ambassador of Palestinian or autistic people. It also shouldn’t invalidate my experiences either. I’m not “wrong” or “a bad Palestinian” just because my experiences are different from other autistic or Palestinian people. We shouldn’t be held up to these impossible standards. And the thing is, if readers already don’t want to make that effort, me telling them what they should or shouldn’t do or think while reading isn’t going to help or change any of that. I do believe, naturally, by seeing more diverse books on the shelves, readers will eventually (hopefully) be tempted to give a story a chance, focusing less on who the author or MC is, and more on if the actual storyline appeals to them.
Miya:
This will be the last question!
Do you have anything you want to say to encourage fellow autistic writers who are still fighting their way to get their books published (especially in the traditional publishing industry)?
Thank you so much Jackie for taking the time to answer the questions, I truly appreciate your participation!
Jackie:
If you have a story you want to tell, then tell it. Don’t worry about getting the rep right. As long as you’re writing the story from a place of lived experience, you can’t be wrong. <3
Thank you, Miya. Good luck with all your writing. I appreciate you being such an advocate for autistic writers!